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My sister has Durable POA, Medical POA (I'm second). Per her request and recommendation of her doctor, Mom was moved to AL about 30 days ago. Did not want to live with any of her 7 children. She is not adjusting well, making an ungodly number of phone calls, wants to go home but she can't live by herself anymore. Tonight, one brother told her he would come and get her tomorrow and move her into his house. He and his wife both work, there will be no one there and the only thing that will change is her physical location, minus all that the AL facility is doing for her. Can he legally just do this?

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NO. Not without permission from POA.
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You speak with Social Worker of facility and tell them how it would be an UNSAFE DISCHARGE!!! Keep repeating that. Tell them that he wouldn’t even visit her because he didn’t know what to do with her. Tell SW they both work! Your mother must stay put where she is! Hugs 🤗
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Your sister did not think properly when she brought your mother to her house. It would be better for someone to move into your mother's house and care for her there. My husband and I moved into my in-law's home to care for them until they passed away. It is legal as long as your mother is able to make decisions for herself.
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TaylorUK Sep 2021
She's in assisted living. Brother want to take her out.
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What does your sister say - she has the POA.
It can take a number of weeks or even months for someone to settle - and they are not going to do so if an and out of facilities. However if your brother (and his wife - I hope he has asked her) are able to provide a safe and stimulating home for your mother then why not let him have a go at doing so. I suspect she will be back in a facility within 6 months but maybe he can provide what she needs and make her happier.
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He just doesn't have the heart or ability to come to terms with her pleading to get out. AL means she just needs some assistance. She is paying for the facility, right? Let her pay at his house for assistance during the hours they work. Yes, it's legal. It is her decision to live where she wants. He just happens to be the one willing to accommodate. Let them try it. Worse case scenario, she returns to AL
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CaregiverL Sep 2021
ALF may not have space available after brother realizes it’s too much trouble to take care of his mother.
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"He has rarely visited her until 2 weeks before she moved and now he wants to get involved but only if it's his way!"

This along with the "notes" your sister saw - IS this a real offer or is it just a way to placate her when she was upset, to get her off the phone? When my mother asked me to drop her off at her mother's on my way home, I had to fudge and say it's late, maybe tomorrow. This satisfied her at the moment and was promptly forgotten. Of course I wasn't going to take her, her mother had been gone 40+ years by then! Notes - yes, mom would hang onto notes she wrote, staff wrote, I wrote and ruffle through them, sometimes months later. We'd try to remove them when she wasn't looking, as they weren't relevant.

IS her facility just AL or is it MC?

Legally neither of you have much say really, unless the POA has specific wording. DPOAs and MPOAs are legal documents which facilitate managing a person's affairs, such as finances, bill paying, signing documents, etc, as well as enabling you to be involved in mom's medical care. As for "power" over a person and/or where they live, generally no. POAs are NOT going to help out there. Even staff told me they can't force anyone to do anything they refuse to do, medical care, medications, bathing, etc. They have to work with them to coax them into thinking it's their idea!

Even going for guardianship, many courts want to let the person retain as much independence as possible, so sometimes you can't even get full guardianship (depends on how much care THEY deem the person needs.) I suspect my mother wouldn't have even passed the sniff test (too early in dementia) to get guardianship, but we didn't go that route as the facility chosen wouldn't accept a "committal."

You and we really need more input - can ALL the kiddos get together and discuss? Perhaps he doesn't intend to take her in. If he does, has he any clue what he's in for?

Both my brothers on finding out how much MC cost said "for that kind of money" they'd take her in! CLUELESS the two were! OB isn't local. He came up a couple of times to help with the condo (a FEW times vs my 2.75 YEARS!) and on the last trip I sent him to visit with her. When I suggested another visit, given that once he went home he wouldn't likely get back to visit much, he REFUSED to go, saying he didn't know what to do with her. THIS was a man who was going to take her home, 2 days drive away, and have her live with him, but couldn't even take a short visit!!!

It would be best to find out the details. Is he really planning to do this? What does he have in place to care for her while they are working? If he isn't planning, then a meeting with staff to get her more involved in activities would be recommended. I didn't set mom up with a phone in her room as she wasn't really capable of using it or hearing well on it and ALL calls would be like your mother's. I didn't want her sitting in her room all the time. Staff had many activities to keep residents occupied and busy. One month really isn't long enough for her to "acclimate." I'd also be concerned if she's in just AL, not MC. They don't really keep AL residents "busy", as most just need physical assistance, not dementia care. They also aren't going to watch over her all day and she could just walk out at any time!
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Redeyedmd Sep 2021
You are spot on with the info given. We did the phone thing at my fathers MC. Should have known better, he hadn’t been able to use (dial, Hang up, turn off and on!)for at least two years. It took a good two months for dad to acclimate. Still have the good and bad days .
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"It's disappointing but not all the uncommon for adult children to put their own feelings or agenda/ issues before the wishes of their parents."

Adults who have children, spouses and financial obligations need to tend to THOSE obligations before they cater to the wants (not needs) of their parents who have had a lifetime to plan for their old age.
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rovana Sep 2021
How about: "It's disappointing but not all that uncommon for aging parents to put their own feelings or agenda issues before the needs of their adult children." Why is it OK for the parents, but not for the child?? Honoring your parents does not place you in serfdom.
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Crystal ball tells me Brother scoops Mom up & takes her home. Smiles all round. Until...

Until Mom is still anxious alone, still wants to go home, Brother & Wife are at work & then seem to have no privacy, no more holidays.

Calls to the OP start. Can you just.. this one time... I need you to take a turn.. why can't you take her for a while...

Of course, this is just ONE very judgemental scenario (based on own experience & others).

Happy ending exist too don't they??
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Redeyedmd Sep 2021
Defiantly all of the above scenarios!
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I think this will have to be the sister's decision whether it is okay for the sibling to move out of AL. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't be able to unless the sister is in charge of her care at his place.
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FromTheValley: Imho, there is a very good chance that her "wanting to go home" will wane/subside in time. Also, as the brother and his wife both work, his idea of bringing mom into his home isn't even feasible.
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If he wants to take over her care, why not?
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disgustedtoo Sep 2021
Because there's no plan (can't even tell from what little we know if this is a "real" want or just a way to get her off the phone!)

If he and his wife are working, WHO will be caring for mom during the workday? She's already falling and having toileting issues. Other post from OP says he rarely even visited mom before this - why the sudden "change of heart", if it even is real?
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I think the best thing to do is to check with an eldercare lawyer to best understand options. But, if it was at your mom's request to be moved to an AL, perhaps it's just a matter of her going thru an adjustment period - I'm sure it's a big change for her - new people, new environment, etc.

Do any of her children live close to her AL? Maybe visits will help...and probing questions - such as why she's unhappy there and what can be done to help ease her adjustment? And, before making a decision on her moving in with her son, it may be more beneficial to do this in steps to assess how it's working out - maybe your mom can stay with him for an extended weekend or so first - and try that for a bit - in the end, she may decide that she'd prefer where she currently is - or not!

And if she does chose to move out of the AL and into your brother's home, it's beneficial for all the siblings to discuss how to support your mom and her options while they're at work during the day - perhaps adult day care of someone checking in on her, etc.

The positive part is it doesn't seem like it needs to be a rushed decision...and fortunately your brother has really been a support - there are so many families where that isn't the case and some siblings bolt when it comes to providing any help at all - and ultimately, the full responsibility is just on one sole sibling - which is my case - and it's a terrible place to be. Thankfully, there are options in your case and it sounds like a strong family unit.
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Candyapple Sep 2021
Sorry. I don’t consider anyone being nasty. Just honest and truthful. Being both does not mean everyone’s nasty. 🗣🙏🏽😇😄
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DPOA and POA ate not interchangeable.
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WOW, some nasty posts here.
Sonce you are secondary POA, you are limited to the fact that you can only step in should the primary POA be unable or not wish to.
As far as your mom wanting to leave, this is something that is normal for many especially when we get older. While you mom wants to go home it may not be in her best interest, however, the doctor may or may not be able to have a say in where she should be AL or in a family home setting with 24/7 care such as with her children.
You could see if mom is competent but that would come at a cost financially, emotionally etc.
POA is supposed to act in the best interest of the one who they are caring for.
Eventually, it may come that she takes a horrible tumble and be severely injured or worse, where the doctors will decide what is best by declaring she is unable to care for herself, but honestly I don't think you have much say. :-( you could check with an elder attorney and if the doctor says she can't live alone, you may have small opening to have her stay in AL.
1 month of being in an AL facility isn't enough time to make new friends, become accustomed to their schedules and so on. The one thing is that if you take a person from a familiar setting and move them to something different they become confused and agitated.
I wish you all the best as it is going to be a rough ride.
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my2cents Sep 2021
How long can someone stay out of the facility before they say you vacated the room? Or would they if you kept paying?? = That might be better, pay for the room, take her to sibling and pay for day care while he works and see how it goes. All you lost is a month of pay for the room or for the day care.
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In my humble opinion and said with love, there are a so many negative posts here especially about the brother whom we know nothing about. I really don't think we have the right to assume what he will do and not do and if he is a bad or good person. I understand that so many of us have had bad experiences with family and elderly facilities. I would like to gently advise From The Valley for you and the other family members to try to work with wherever your Mom ends up. Everyone has their own opinion and when it comes to taking care of people we love our opinions get even stronger and sometimes more forceful. All of this will not help your Mom though. Having her family at odds could stress her out so much that it could advance any cognitive decline and even illnesses. If she is forced to chose sides or if she makes a decision where it appears she is forced to choose sides that is not good for her either. She raised all of you kids and just needs all of you to show her that you love her and care about her. Your brother not answering of course is not helping this situation. But if she does go to your brother he will be taking care of her after work and on weekends - that is a lot when you work. If everyone pitched in and helped out of love - maybe it could work out better than what is anticipated. I am not saying by any means that is answer but if he is allowed to pull her out I would rather see my Mom and take care of her as much as I could at my brothers than to refuse to go there. Not seeing her and making sure she is safe and cared for could hurt your Mom in so many ways. And in the end it could hurt you too. This is the kind of situation that can tear families apart sometimes forever. I wish only the best for you and your siblings and especially your Mom. I know this is so hard. Hugs and love to you.
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rovana Sep 2021
You are quite right that making assumptions is risky. At the same time, I think it fair that if brother does not have a lot of recent experience with doing hands-on care, he may very well underestimate the amount of work involved. Would mom actually receive better care at brother's than she is currently getting in facility? Or would her care be worse.
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Good Lord you sure did open a can of "honest opinions" If your brother and his wife have so graciously welcomed YOUR MOTHER into their home, why can't you find a way to honor her wishes and be of help instead of criticizing them? Good grief!
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Sarah3 Sep 2021
I’ll never understand this kind of thing— their mom has expressed she isn’t okay at the AL and a sibling graciously and generously offers for her to live with him. In return the other two siblings commit not to help their sibling in any way. I feel that the poa sister should resign based on this alone. She doesn’t seem to have the motive of her parents best interest otherwise she would put her own preferences aside and be there to assist as she’s able to as well!
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Y not! He should be able to. If she’s not happy there and possibly being missed treated . Or She may not like the place and it’s ok. At least someone wants her and looking out for her best interest. She may do much better. They could have someone look in on her for few hours. To me it sounds like u want her to stay put verses her feelings .
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theguardian Sep 2021
Amen!
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If your mom willingly moved in, she can willingly move out.

POA only has the ability to intervene if the grantor is declared incompetent. This could be by 2 doctors, stated in the POA or it would need to be through the courts. Taking away anyone's autonomy is serious business and you have to read the documents carefully to understand what authority really exists.

If she wants to go and they want to have her, help them insure her safety, maybe hiring companion sitters while they are at work, maybe getting a housekeeper or a in home chef to prepare meals.

There are ways to make this work if all parties, your mom, brother and his spouse in this case, are willing.

From my personal experience some doctors are way to quick to pull the facility trigger.
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Sarah3 Sep 2021
I agree and believe the reason is that in many of these cases there are kickbacks in one form or another involved
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Unless your mom has been deemed incompetent in a court of law, she can do whatever she wants.
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disgustedtoo Sep 2021
Sure she can, but would you want her to? If she has dementia and is at risk but hasn't been to court, do you just let her do whatever? THAT would be irresponsible.

My mother was NEVER Dxed by a doc and we NEVER went to court to have her deemed incompetent. However it was NOT NOT NOT NOT EVER safe to leave her to her own devices.
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God Bless him!!! Thank GOD he is getting her out of this horrible place. You have no idea how bad it can be.

Instead of fighting your brother, why don't you HELP them. He can get in home care for your mom when they are working. Check into IRIS which is a great program to help with financial issues if they need help there.

I regret EVER letting them put my sister into one of these places. The lack of care and abuse is off the charts! My sister died during the lock downs because of it.
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Candyapple Sep 2021
Absolutely, I’m happy also, she has support. What goes around comes right back to yah. I agree she should be assisting. I think she feels everyone will be put on her.(duties) people don’t love u like ur family does. Sometimes family doesn’t. If someone willing to help . Amen. Feel bad about ur sister. That’s just a place where they have control over u and ur money until u died. It’s for ppl to send others when they claim they don’t have time fir u. They forget one it will be there time as well how u treat others comes back.
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Yes, if he has permission from your sister with POA.

I can understand mom not wanting to be there as they are all understaffed and not a fun, warm loving place to be.

It sounds to me Ike mom has changed her mind about not wanting to live with any of her 7 children.

Im sure you would too if you've ever spent a night or two in a facility.

Your mom has tried it for a month already and deffiently not happy living there.

Seniors do so much better and are so much happier and live longer being able to stay in their own home or move in with a loved one.

If there are 7 children and one wants to let mom live with him abd she wants to, then I think it's awesome.

You might call a family meeting to discuss the move and what is needed to help your brother help your mom live the rest of her life as happy as she can.

if mom can't afford to hire Caregiver help then the other 6 children she each donate money to the cause.

If your Dad was in the Military. You could check on getting help for mom as they provide spouses up to 30 hrs a week care and a few other things.

I think it's commendable of your brother Andover the compassion he's showing for his mom that has nursed and taken care of 7 children and now it has come the time to reciprocate.

Prayers
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WendyElaine Sep 2021
Bevthe great—I am currently staying with my mom in her ALF—which is an awesome place!! True, residents need a certain level of ability to function independently in an ALF ( which is why I am currently here with her). Tho I am sure there are many inadequate long-term care facilities and ALFs, there are many wonderful ones. Right now my mom is up and dressed and in the dining room enjoying lunch with her table mates—something that would not be happening if she were left to her own devices at “home” with no supervision.
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If your brother is moving her in, is he providng her a health care nurse or help while he is not there? What about vacations? She may need 24 hour care. It does take time for people to get comfortable in new surroundings, especially if dementia is present (even just the starting of it). My dad had to be moved from independent living (which provided meals so it was great) to a nursing home after a fall and rehab. He kept saying he wanted to go home, and my sisters just thought he hated his new place. What they didnt want to hear or research is that home is in the head and heart, not a specific place. He has memory issues and dementia has gotten alot worse this past year due to Covid-19. I am his POA and when I asked for help finding a different place neither helped, so they had their chance. They blame me for his condition and we no longer speak unless it is me updating them on anything medical with my dad. Sad this divides families, but I can't deal with them bashing me with every thing I do for my dad. His care comes first.
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So first of all even if he can in the end it is going to be very hard for him to move her out of her AL and take her home with him without the DPOA/MPOA, your sister being involved. She is the first person the facility is going to call when they get wind of this. But after reading more of the details below I’m wondering if perhaps this was just his way of getting her off the phone. Maybe she was complaining and saying she wants to go home (we don’t know what that means to her) and he just said I will come get you tomorrow if that’s what you want to pacify her. Maybe he actually thought about, discussed it with his wife and maybe not. Your mom likely makes notes about the things she wants to hear during these conversations not necessarily what was actually said.

As already pointed out adjustment, for everyone, can certainly take more than 30 days. It does alarm me that your mother is now mistrusting you and your sister wether it be because your brother is actively trying to sway her or because she is talking to too many people who aren’t on the same page and coming out with what suits her for the moment. Ultimately she made the original decision that “she did not want to live with any of her 7 children” and elected to go to this AL, I have no doubt this was a process and she needs to be reminded that this was the option she chose for good reasons. The facts haven’t changed, she can’t live alone and she doesn’t want to live with any of you. She was part of crossing the place she is in and if she leaves she will loose it, she may or may not have the option to return to the same facility but not likely the same apartment/room. The cost of moving somewhere else and getting the help she needs needs to be considered as well by everyone.

Your brother may not participate, that’s his choice but maybe a meeting with all 7 siblings, difficult I know but it is the virtual meeting age, to discuss the facts and all of these issues. It should probably be led by your sister POA because she has been and will be the point person but you both need to be open to your siblings questions and views. The point being making sure everyone is on the same page and guiding your mom, giving her the right facts, in the right direction. This may be the only way to help her settle in or find out if it’s the wrong facility but even if one or two siblings aren’t on board with the rest understanding the facts it should be easier to keep her in the right place. She made the choices for her DPOA and back ups for a reason and I’m guessing that wasn’t a recent choice so deep down she trusts you and your sister. It can be hard for a mother to remind one child that she “chose” another so it may not be surprising that she sways depending on who she is talking to.
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RedVanAnnie Sep 2021
The sister's DPOA is irrelevant unless your mother is declared by two physician's to be unable to make her own decisions.
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He can not. He does not have POA. Please inform her AL about this fact.
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Sarah3 Sep 2021
See above replies. Poa doesn’t grant one the power to keep someone at an Al against their will unless they’re deemed incompetent- assuming she hasn’t been, she voluntarily moved in.
There would be conservatorship if she was deemed incompetent. If the person with poa attempts to coerce or force her to stay there the sibling or the mom can call social services.
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Lou, there s an extensive glossary on the site. I have often asked admin to make it easy to find on each thread. For some reason that has never been done.

I know how frustrating it is, I was a newcomer once here too. I now am on a another site and trying to figure out the terminology. It makes you think about leaving the site and not returning, doesn't it?

This is the link to that glossary: (as soon as I find it, I will edit this response)

Link to frequently used terms

https://www.agingcare.com/articles/common-caregiving-abbreviations-and-acronyms-435589.htm
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JoAnn29 Sep 2021
I know its frustrating. And even now I have to look up some Medical abbrev. But I was in collections and we had our own abbreviations we used inbour notes. Some like DH are common on most forums and groups. I am on a tablet and its so much easier to abbreviate.
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Now if your mom is deemed mentally competent, she can leave anytime she wants--only IF she is competent to make her own decisions.
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Sarah3 Sep 2021
If she was deemed incompetent there would be a conservatorship in place. There isn’t, there’s a poa which doesn’t include the legal ability to force someone to move or remain in an al without their consent. She is not giving consent she has stated she wants to leave. An al isn’t considered a medical facility
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This is to the Editor of Aging Care:

People are using too many abbreviatons in their Q&A. Sometimes it takes me
5 minutes to understand what they mean. Not everyone of your readers is
familiar with this sort of texting.

Solution: Post some sort of chart at the beginningof each Q&A that explains what the most commonly used abbreviations mean.
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Cover99 Sep 2021
Lol it does take some getting used to.
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Maybe you could set up a meeting with the director of nursing at the AL and have brother and sister present. Explain how your mom is having difficulty adjusting. I think having a third party professional present to explain how adjustments for new residents is and how long it can take might simmer brother down.
when a parent moves there is always a 3-6 month adjustment period. My dad refused to leave his room for activities at first but finally adjusted and loved going to bingo. Many times to stop the whining, tears and fighting a sibling will just capitulate and think it’s the path of least resistance to move them out. They are thinking with the heart and not the head. Please don’t let him move her. Schedule the meeting route first.
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Sarah3 Sep 2021
This sounds like it would basically amount to an attempt to coerce her to stay. Unless she’s been deemed incompetent which is assumed by most people here she hasn’t then any attempt to coerce, bribe, force her to stay is a violation of her rights and would be just cause to have social services called.
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If your mother has money for Assisted Living, would she consider staying in her home with in-home caregivers? Have seen this done for relative and neighbor. Ran $5,000 month for 24/7 care. Maybe there's something like this where your mom's house is located.

The agency owners hire women from their home towns in Poland, the Phillipines, do the paperwork for work Visas. The workers earn money to send home to their families. Three workers are assigned to cover week days and week-ends. They do round the clock shifts, for 2 or 3 days, living in, sleeping over, cooking meals, bathing, dressing; some do light cleaning on their own initiative. Agency covers liability insurance, hiring, call-offs et al. If only daytime care needed, worker puts mom to bed at 7pm. At 7am, new worker arrives to get patient out of bed, cook breakfast etc.

Standard U.S. Home Health Agencies are costly because of overhead, charge upwards of $26 an hour, worker gets $15 an hr. Often, workers are not dependable because of difficulties holding down any job.
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Harpcat Sep 2021
I would not do this. You have no idea of these people's backgrounds and they could steal from her or the homeowner.
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I knew my mom would need assistance in assisted living….so I introduced her to a friend who was willing to visit her, take her for mani/pedi and out for shopping or lunch. When this friend got a full time job and had to stop, I looked for another “friend”. I did not tell mom that the friend was getting paid or mom would fire her. This friend was someone I found (prayerfully) by going to a nursing site on facebook and contacting the administrator. I also considered contacting a local nursing school. It has been wonderful. Mom has 1 person (agencies could not guarantee the same person every time) and I pay her directly. I was with her for the first introduction and she stopped by the next day during lunch and joined mom in the dining hall. She has been invaluable because she concentrated on making friends with mom (talking about nursing - mom was a nurse) and things that ladies talk about. She has been wonderful because mom doesn't tell me everything the way she tells the friend. I also have a Alexa show 8 so I can drop in and talk to mom. Seeing her face is helpful. I use it to put calendar events on it like when meals are served and if there is something mom might like ( happy hour and music). Mom looks at the calendar all the time and is very comfortable. NOW, this is what I think she thinks about me living with her: I kept her on a schedule with meals and meds, I prepared her food because she didn’t do a good job and it tasted bad so she didn’t eat it, I kept the house a good temperature and she wanted it hot. This place is wonderful because she isn’t arguing with me and she gets to set her own schedule. I keep a small panty for her (nuts, apricots, ensure, energy bars). It took 2.5 months for mom to began to walk around the facility and now at 10 months, this is her home and she goes to movies in the evening in-house and enjoys her tablemates. The “friend” is wonderful and gets with mom at least weekly but I let them arrange it according to mom’s schedule or her schedule. What is wonderful is that this lady has a business license after she retired. She bills me through her business and because she is a RN, she evaluates mom as needed and is her advocate. My suggestion: get your mom a friend, it made a world of difference for my mom and my mom is a painful introvert who does not make friends easily.
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NastyMom Sep 2021
Genius! A brilliant idea.
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